Power Marketing with Kevin Lee

Kevin Lee interviews Michael Lyden, Vice President of Threat Intelligence at the Trust Accountability Group (TAG), in a discussion about the current state of malvertising and what the ad industry is doing to fight it.

As TAG notes on its website, “Malvertising is now a problem at scale. Recent research suggests that despite improvements in the digital ad landscape, nearly 1 in every 100 ad impressions were still impacted by a malicious or disruptive ad, suggesting that more than 20% of user sessions may be impacted by malvertising. The financial impact of malvertising has grown apace as well. In 2018, it was estimated that the industry lost $210 million annually to auto-redirects, and another $920 million from the ads auto-redirects facilitated with click fraud.”

Kevin and Michael discuss the current threat environment and talk about what TAG is doing to make things better. As Michael notes, social engineering is rising as a malvertising modality. “Because modern browsers have gotten so secure, it’s harder than ever to download malware from an ad. It really requires you as the internet user to do something: to click through a series of prompts and install the malware or install some other kinds of software at the behest of a criminal group. So social engineering really becomes the key method for criminal groups to get you to do something.”

Michael and Kevin discuss the potential risks of generative AI in digital advertising, including its abuse by criminals to create convincing content and bypass traditional countermeasures. Michael notes that criminals are opportunistic and will exploit weaknesses in the industry, making it essential for digital advertising to stay vigilant and adapt to new threats. He emphasizes the importance of staying nimble, advancing cooperation within the industry, and liaising with law enforcement entities to keep malvertising at bay.

The discussion then turns to the topic of potential vulnerabilities within the affiliate marketing industry to nefarious actors, given its complex ecosystem and lack of information sharing among a large group of independent companies.

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Kevin Lee interviews Nate Burke, Founder and CEO at Diginius, a SaaS technology company specializing in digital marketing and e-commerce solutions, about how his company is using Microsoft Advertising Network for the benefit of clients.

They discuss the potential for Microsoft to gain market share in search advertising with the help of AI and proprietary technology. We agree that Microsoft has an opportunity to increase coverage in the mid-market and lower segments, and that the current antitrust suit could impact the search landscape. Nate observes that that while mobile users are a smaller percentage on Microsoft, the platform can still convert well for certain industries, and shifting desktop traffic budget to Microsoft can lead to improved performance.

The discussion turns to the topic of B2B marketing, whose long sales cycles require nuanced KPIs and the use of signals that can serve as proxies for engagement and interest. They then talk about the increasing adoption of AI in various industries, including marketing, where AI tools are being used to automate tasks such as product listing creation and bidding algorithms, with Nate noting that while AI can save time and improve efficiency, it’s important to develop critical thinking skills and expertise to use it correctly.

Nate is excited about potential changes in the search industry which may happen in 2024, including the prospect of increased competition and the possibility that some large tech companies may be broken up.

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Kevin Lee interviews Lauren DeLisa Coleman, a media and entertainment expert who helps clients navigate the intersection of technology and culture. She runs several agencies and a non-profit called Game Change, which supports women of color in leadership positions in emerging tech and media. She writes for a number of publications, including Forbes, has spoken at conferences across the world, and has written several e-books, the most recent being “America’s Most Wanted: The Millennial.”

Kevin and Lauren discuss how creators in the music space are now acting more like broadcasters or publishers, while others remain tied to their favorite platforms. Lauren notes that some creators are entrepreneurial-minded and actively pursue direct relationships with their fans, while others rely on their teams and existing opportunities. She emphasizes the importance of direct relationships between artists and fans, citing Master P and 50 Cent as examples of successful entrepreneurs who have built their careers through hard work and direct communication.

Lauren emphasizes authenticity in brand relationships, urging marketers and creators to understand the needs and perspectives of their target audiences. A particularly important skill is to understand cultural narratives and values in order to create authentic campaigns or events. She advises against relying solely on data or focus groups to inform decisions, instead advocating for a deep absorption into the subject matter.

Kevin and Lauren agree that it’s a mistake to regard any demographic or cultural group as monolithic. Brand managers must avoid oversimplifying diverse groups, as even within a single subculture, there may be subgroups with distinct needs and preferences.

The conversation closes with a discussion with what’s ahead in the media world in 2024, which, as we all know, will be a presidential election year. Lauren shares insights on how to better leverage music for political campaigns, while avoiding potential legal issues. She suggests partnering with a consultant to help manage collaborations between artists and politicians, citing the potential for authenticity and quality content.

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Kevin lee interviews Julie Roehm, who has served in high-level marketing posts at some of the most recognized brands on the planet, including DaimlerChrysler. Today, she consults on a contract basis for Gorilla Commerce, an e-commerce product development platform dedicated to launching and growing powerful brands. She’s also on the advisory boards of several large organizations, including T-Mobile and the National Kidney Foundation.

Julie is a big advocate of putting customer experience at the center of every marketing decision made by a brand. She maintains that marketing efforts should always be aligned with company KPIs, such as conversion and margin, in order to demonstrate value and credibility. By focusing on these KPIs, marketers can change the way they are perceived by operations and finance teams, leading to more productive collaboration and innovation.

Julie and Kevin agree that marketers should identify low-hanging fruit in any transformation or change initiative, even if it’s not part of one’s direct responsibility. She highlights the value of pressure testing and journey mapping to identify areas for improvement, a process involving members from various departments for a comprehensive understanding of the customer experience.

They trade notes on the new crop of tools for content creation, including AI-generated animation software capable of creating high-quality moving images. Julie agrees that these tools are game-changers, but warns that because they make content creation so easy, thus allowing an almost infinite set of variations to be produced for every creative concept, there’s a risk that marketers will be overwhelmed and lose focus. Finally, they chat about the growing role of influencers in marketing and how their status might evolve in an era quite likely to see more regulation by governmental entities such as the FTC.

Julie is excited about the coming year and sees AI as a major continuing driver of transformative change within marketing and in society at large.

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Kevin Lee interviews Tim Jensen, who works on the paid media team at the M&T bank. Tim recently presented at the Brighton SEO Conference in San Diego on the topic of PPC reporting and dealing with the major data changes that have been coming down the pike this year.

It’s a hot topic because the level of granularity and transparency in data is evolving towards more opacity, rather than more transparency, in the post-cookie era. Given this evolutionary trend, Tim suggests using multiple sources of data to compare and find the “single source of truth” for campaign performance, while focusing on trends rather than exact matches between disparate reporting systems.

Tim and Kevin agree that the imminent abolition of 3rd party tracking cookies is elevating the role that first-party data will play in effective marketing campaigns, which runs the risk of creating two classes of marketers: “data haves” and “data have nots.” They also agree that savvy marketers – especially those working in a B2B context — shouldn’t ignore Microsoft’s paid ad offerings, which in some important applications offer more control over campaigns than Google’s.

They trade notes on lead scoring best practices and move on to the topic of the GA4 migration, an event that’s caused a certain amount of frustration for marketers who grew accustomed to Universal Analytics’ rich functionality and ease of use. As Tim notes, “GA4 is intimidating, especially for a small business owner, it’s not going to be easy to set up. I do think it’s valuable to maybe take some time to learn to set it up – to at least get some basic events and conversions firing.”

While Tim acknowledges that mastering GA4 can be frustrating, making the effort is worthwhile, given that GA4 provides sophisticated custom reporting capabilities that have never existed before.

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Kevin Lee interviews Ashley West, a seasoned entrepreneur and business leader who formed her consultancy, Franklyn West, because she felt limited by traditional consulting firms’ ability to provide actionable solutions with speed and accountability. Prior to forming Franklyn West, Ashley served as the Global Chief Business Officer at Thrive Global, reporting directly to Founder/CEO Arianna Huffington. Before that, she built and scaled Refinery29, the leading digital media and entertainment company for women.

Kevin and Ashley discuss how inertia is a common challenge for large companies, while small brands are often nimbler in adapting to change. Ashley is a strong exponent of promoting agility in marketing plans, with a focus on disrupting oneself and one’s company to build a sustainable future workforce and media plan. She also emphasizes the importance of bringing fresh perspectives and high-value ideas to the table, rather than simply disrupting existing processes.

Another challenge lies in the fact that brands must create media plans that are more complex — and subject to iterative modification — than in prior years. They discuss the importance of understanding the core consumer and their aspirations in order to create personalized marketing strategies that resonate.

The discussion then pivots to consider the potential for fractionalizing talent to help organizations achieve their marketing goals while reducing costs.

Ashley is clearly optimistic about what 2024 will bring and believes her consultancy will add a lot of value to forward-looking companies in the years ahead.

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Kevin Lee interviews Andrew Young, an entrepreneur whose successful tech-centric networking events have led Business Insider to dub him “The Gatsby of Silicon Alley.”

Kevin and Andrew discuss the origin story behind Andrew’s project, why IRL events are hot right now, and delve into Andrews’ motivations for running events. What’s intriguing and a bit unusual about what Andrew is doing is that a lot of his motivation is powered by a desire to do good, not just to get ahead. As he explains, “I approached it from the perspective from a very human angle, you know, there’s nothing in it for me, other than just wanting to make friends and give back to the community.”

Andrew and Kevin agree that there’s a tremendous pent-up demand for real-world networking events, and that many younger technology industry people feel awkward when it comes to networking. As he notes, “we’ve seen so many reports on the impact of loneliness and people just wanting to find their communities, especially in the Gen Z millennial age range, where people just graduated college at a time where it was unacceptable to leave the apartment. So people are attending for social reasons, business reasons and just craving that community aspect, which is why in New York alone, you’re seeing 10 new social clubs pop up every month.”

Beyond hosting events, Andrew is an angel investor, and they spend a bit of time chatting about his philosophy towards investments. As Andrew explains, he looks for companies with a large growth potential, a brilliant founder, and a problem that could be addressed with a venture-scale product.

Later, they debate the best approach to product development in an agile environment, with Andrew advocating for prioritizing customer feedback along with a more flexible approach to product road mapping, touch upon the impact of AI to speed up product development, and discuss Andrew’s approach to management, which focuses on empowering team members to make decisions and work on tasks they’re passionate about.

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Kevin Lee interviews Mike Gunderson, Founder and CEO at Gunderson Direct, a Hayward, California-based agency specializing in direct mail. They discuss direct mail’s strengths, how it’s evolving — including the degree to which it’s incorporating new digital technologies — and discuss some strategies and best practices that marketers can use to obtain the best results from the direct mail channel.

As Mike explains, the costs for delivering hyper-personalized, relevant direct mail pieces have dropped while the capabilities have grown: “I can do full, variable digital color printing at scale — 100,000, 500,000, a million pieces of mail, whether it’s a post card, whether it’s a letter, whether it’s inline or not — and I can develop it all without using plates.”

Kevin and Mike trade notes on the history of QR codes and their resurgence in the pandemic and post-pandemic era. As Mike notes, QR codes are powerful tools for direct mail marketers, allowing them to pre-fill landing pages or CRMs with customer information, and track back-end database records for retargeting ads or sales calls. Additionally, consumers are much more familiar with using them than they were pre-COVID. At the same time, he notes that it’s important that marketers not make any technical mistakes when incorporating QR codes into marketing materials and campaigns.

Mike speaks about a technology his company has built called Post Reminder, which uses QR codes to send reminders to customers about upcoming sales or events. Then Kevin and Mike chat about how the USPS is offering new products, including one called Informed Delivery, that are gaining traction today.

As Mike notes, “they took technology that they’re using anyway to track to track letters and said, ‘hey, how can we turn this into a benefit for the consumer?’ And I think they did a really good job with implementing that and making it more useful for both the consumer and marketers alike.”

Direct mail is a powerful channel that’s often underutilized by marketers who should know better. Given its potential for delivering and tracking hyper-personalized messages that can cut through the clutter, Mike and I agree that it’s a channel with a strong future.

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Kevin Lee interviews Samir Patel, VP/CMO at GrowthMachines, a Berkeley, California-based consultancy powering growth marketing campaigns.

They cover lots of topics in our interview, including the frustration that many marketers are feeling right now with the forced “upgrade” to GA4. As Samir notes, while the move to GA4 might have great payoffs in the long term, in the short term it’s a “hot mess” that is imposing major costs on marketers.

Samir and Kevin trade notes on the potential impact of LLMs on SEO, how they are useful from a content creation perspective, the likelihood that they will be abused by spammers seeking to flood the web with robotic, low-authority content, and the countermeasures that Google might employ to downrank AI-generated spam.

Samir notes that many SEO practitioners he works with don’t seem to be making any real effort to get up to speed with LLMs, despite the fact that AI-enabled search is likely to have a profound impact on SEO tactics and strategies that have remained relatively stable over the past decade.

Samir and Kevin agree that voice search might be the first area where AI will make a major impact, given that those making voice queries are accustomed to single, (hopefully) authoritative results. The conversation then progresses to a discussion of how LLMs might improve their utility should they be given access to more personal, historical data relating to the user and chat about the trade-offs between user privacy and user convenience that might be necessary for LLMs to further enhance the online user experience.

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Kevin Lee interviews Scott Simonelli, Founder and CEO at Veritonic, a company that uses multivariate testing and statistical rigor to optimize audio for marketing campaigns. Interestingly, before founding Veritonic, Scott composed music for TV ads. As he explains, “the genesis for Veritonic is: can we quantify human response to sound? Can we help marketers and advertisers understand how audio is impacting everything that they do?”

They discuss the power of audio in terms of influencing visceral responses and long-term memory, and how its impact on listeners can be discovered through the application of scalable testing methods. We touch on how different physical environments (e.g., car, gym, work) can elicit different reactions to audio ads, making it challenging to generalize results, and how consumer responses to audio will be different if audio formats are skippable or non-skippable.

Scott notes that while digital audio advertising is still in its early stages, there is a growing expectation that data-driven optimization and attribution modeling will be applied to the audio channel in the same way they’ve been applied to non-audio advertising channels. He notes that “as a medium audio has got a lot of advantages. And I think we’ll continue to learn the right way to do it. But I think one thing we’re really fighting for, is to compare audio to other things that you do from a media standpoint and dollar for dollar.”

The discussion turns to the growth of podcast advertising, along with the importance of sonic branding in advertising generally, particularly for brands with large audiences.

Finally, they turn our attention to the power of audio advertising during the holiday and political seasons.

Scott is clearly bullish about the future of digital audio advertising and is eager to have his company be part of the solution in terms of providing research and reliable attribution modeling to encourage future growth of the audio channel.

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